Trans actress Laverne Cox of “Orange Is the New Black” sits down with legendary gay singer-songwriter Sir Ari Gold to discuss what it means to be a gay artist ahead of his upcoming performance at Joe’s Pub.
As Joe’s Pub at The Public gears up to celebrate 15 years of bringing some of the best live music New York City has to offer, including an emphasis on queer performers like Justin Vivian Bond, Billy Porter and Sandra Bernhard, Sir Ari Gold makes his return to the legendary intimate venue on February 10 with a show that celebrates his own career as a pioneering openly gay pop singer-songwriter.
Celebrating our own long-standing friendship, we decided to sit down, chat and just turn on the digital recorder to have one of the talks only he and I can have.
Cox: Tell me what you are planning for this show at Joe’s Pub on February 10.
Gold: It’s a celebration of my life and my songs thus far, and I thought what better way to do it than to ask some of my favorite NYC singers to come and sing my own catalog with me. So far we’ve got Raven O, Jason Walker, Peppermint, Adam Joseph,Mila Jam, MEG, Zhana, Kendra Ross, David Raleigh, Roland Lake [and] RuPaul may even swing by. I will also be debuting a new song off my upcoming fifth studio album. My birthday is the next day, so it’s gonna be a party!
You’ve been performing at Joe’s Pub for the bulk of their 15 years, haven’t you?
Yes! I performed there in the ‘90s with Carmelita Tropicana and started doing my own shows after. I’ve performed at festivals, stadiums, theaters, dance clubs, coffee houses and dive bars all over the world, and nothing compares to the times I’ve performed at Joe’s Pub over the last 15 years. No matter if I perform with dancers, singers, a band, jazz trio or just a piano, the vibe at Joe’s Pub is such that before I even get on the stage, they get and appreciate the kind of queer, pop, Jewy, theatrical, fourth-generation Lower East Side artist I am.
Ari, you often talk about being out from the beginning of your recording career. Your first album came out in 2000. When I think about that in relationship to me being trans and out from the beginning of my career, I haven’t really had a choice. I, like many trans people, don’t pass as non-trans. Similarly, there are gay men and lesbians who don’t or can’t pass as straight. You can’t really go into the closet if you can’t pass.
They love that narrative. The passing and coming out narrative. Our culture rewards that.
Attaining success out of the closet the whole time is still really challenging, and I think of you…
Even though I so strongly identify with being gay, the truth is, I could have passed if I wanted to. That’s why a lot of music industry people told me to go into the closet – because I could pass. I guess it was a big sacrifice for me in that way. I did have the choice. I could have also passed for white. I did choose to take my yarmulke off cause I felt rejected initially by the orthodox community, so I chose to wear my chai instead—some Jew bling to represent my being olive, or off-white if you will. I was told to change my name as well cause it was so Jewish, but I was adamant about proving that “Ari Gold” could evoke sex and rock ‘n roll and not some pushy show-biz agent—then of course HBO came along and once again the stereotype wins [laughs]
I’m living for us talking about passing in terms of both gay and trans issues. There are so many gay men I know that could never pass, who could never go in the closet. And so often I see that inability to pass not being valued and celebrated.
Both of us have been outspoken and out from the beginning for a long time now. When we sometimes go to our own communities…
They aren’t having it! They say, “Can you not talk about being trans so much?”
They say, if you call yourself a gay artist you put yourself in a box. But why does saying I’m a gay artist have to put me in a box? Do I have to say, I am an artist—not a gay artist. But I want to use the term gay because it’s important to hear people say that and be proud of that word. There are as many ways of being gay as there are gay people.
There’s such a limited idea of what it means to be gay or what it means to be trans. That’s changing for gay folks cause more gay folks are out. Trans folks, it’s getting better, but we have a long way to go.
That’s one of the reasons why I live for you, Laverne, and value our friendship. When I am with you, I feel recognized and validated. With you it’s just a given. You come to me with my own success as an artist always already being validated.
When we look at you as an artist, there’s all these conflicting things…Seemingly conflicted…
But exist in this one subjectivity. I think in understanding you as an artist and looking back and looking forward, you’re this person who’s very…complicated. Part of why I wanted to do this interview is to get a sense of you more as an artist, and I guess complicate the perception. When I talk to people about you, I don’t think people always fully understand what you’re doing and who you are. The marketing, as authentic as it is, it’s really about these varying influences. I’m political, but I also wanna dance. It’s a lot of stuff.
I’m not always aware about how much stuff it is cause it’s just me, but dance music and the struggle for equal rights go hand in hand. In some ways I do represent something that’s almost a prototype for being gay. I am that gay man who loves dance music. I am able to be on the cover of a gay magazine with my shirt off. I’m attempting to challenge ideas about sexuality that come from the mainstream culture as well as challenging ideas that come from within the LGBT community. I don’t want to desexualize myself in order to be more palatable for mainstream, yet also don’t want to only be seen as a sexual object to gay men who may be stuck in their own internalized homophobia about what makes us valuable and feeling like we are always being hypersexualized as a culture. It’s a challenging balance.
I was just doing an interview with this performing and recording artist who said, “I am an artist, not an entertainer. Entertainers make you forget, and artists make you remember.”
That’s good! But like any binary, that too can be deconstructed. Cause I want my music to help us remember, but I also want the music to help heal the pain and maybe even forget it for a moment.
My question to you is at this point in your career, 15 years into it…
And 30 years including my career as a child performer…
What is the conception for you in your career to be a pop star at this point, and what is your relationship to breaking into the mainstream?
If that was my first goal, I would have made different choices. As an artist working in the pop medium I want to reach as many people as possible, but I wanna reach them with the things I feel passionate about. I’ve always said that my goal is to reach LGBT people first and foremost, because somebody needed to say that gay people come first. And that’s why I haven’t shied away from gay content in my workor the term “gay artist.” Right now I am going through so many personal changes, and that will hopefully be reflected in my work.
I think in a lot of ways you’ve been codified, because you’ve been around so long, and people have already made up their minds about you. What is the rebrand that will maybe get people to give Sir Ari Gold a chance?
The rebrand is that “Ari Gold” is not a brand. Ari Gold is an artist and a human being. We have plenty of artists who are brands, and I am a fan of many of them. I love the Madonna brand. I love the Beyonce brand. But if you want something that doesn’t have to cater to a corporate brand name and want something more authentic, come to my show and support my new project “Soundtrack to Freedom” on Kickstarter. It’s our culture’s obsession with branding, fame and money that is in many ways what my next project is about being free from. Let’s just say Non-BrandsAre the New Black.
Laverne Cox is an actress, producer and transgender advocate who can be seen starring in the hit Netflix show “Orange Is the New Black.”
Sir Ari’s new Maxi-single, “Wave Of U” with remixes by Tracy Young, Subgroover,
and Naked Highway from his remixed retrospective PLAY MY F**KN REMIX drops this month. You can be a part of his next album project Soundtrack To Freedom on kickstarter and see him LIVE at Joe’s Pub February 10th, 9:30pm. Joespub.com.
arigold.com Tix $25
